1 00:00:00,521 --> 00:00:01,723 [MUSIC PLAYING] 2 00:00:01,723 --> 00:00:02,931 SALMAN RUSHDIE: Try to learn. 3 00:00:02,931 --> 00:00:04,801 You know, try to learn. 4 00:00:04,801 --> 00:00:06,861 The more you learn, the more will 5 00:00:06,861 --> 00:00:09,921 be at your fingertips to use. 6 00:00:09,921 --> 00:00:12,951 Writing books is like an education that never ends. 7 00:00:12,951 --> 00:00:16,431 It's always trying to increase the sum of what you 8 00:00:16,431 --> 00:00:18,191 know so that you can use it. 9 00:00:18,191 --> 00:00:21,607 [EXOTIC MUSIC] 10 00:00:32,371 --> 00:00:37,471 Probably the most directly historical novel 11 00:00:37,471 --> 00:00:40,951 that I've written is The Enchantress of Florence, 12 00:00:40,951 --> 00:00:42,451 in the sense that a lot of my novels 13 00:00:42,451 --> 00:00:44,851 deal with more or less contemporary history. 14 00:00:44,851 --> 00:00:47,821 But this deals with 400 years ago. 15 00:00:47,821 --> 00:00:52,483 And in the famous sentence of L. P. Hartley, which 16 00:00:52,483 --> 00:00:54,941 is the opening line of his novel "The Go-Between," he says, 17 00:00:54,941 --> 00:00:56,331 the past is another country. 18 00:00:56,331 --> 00:00:58,671 They do things differently there. 19 00:00:58,671 --> 00:01:00,021 And that's a thing you always have to remember. 20 00:01:00,021 --> 00:01:02,821 And that's a thing you always have to remember. 21 00:01:02,821 --> 00:01:06,381 When you're going into the past, people 22 00:01:06,381 --> 00:01:10,401 don't behave like they behave in the 21st century, you know. 23 00:01:10,401 --> 00:01:11,841 And they don't think like that. 24 00:01:14,551 --> 00:01:19,981 So to do the research about the social circumstances 25 00:01:19,981 --> 00:01:23,281 of the period, and the political and cultural events 26 00:01:23,281 --> 00:01:26,451 of the period, I mean, that's hard work. 27 00:01:26,451 --> 00:01:29,241 But it's relatively straightforward. 28 00:01:29,241 --> 00:01:30,021 The hard bit for an imaginative writer 29 00:01:30,021 --> 00:01:32,751 The hard bit for an imaginative writer 30 00:01:32,751 --> 00:01:36,531 is to imagine yourself into the thought processes of people who 31 00:01:36,531 --> 00:01:40,901 don't think like you, you know. 32 00:01:40,901 --> 00:01:46,031 Not just pre-Freudian, but a long way before that, you know. 33 00:01:46,031 --> 00:01:50,591 People whose way of-- cast of mind is very alien to you even. 34 00:01:50,591 --> 00:01:54,281 You know, and then to try and humanize them. 35 00:01:54,281 --> 00:01:57,521 Try-- to try and give them a life 36 00:01:57,521 --> 00:02:00,021 on the page with which readers can identify, 37 00:02:00,021 --> 00:02:02,014 on the page with which readers can identify, 38 00:02:02,014 --> 00:02:03,431 rather than thinking, those people 39 00:02:03,431 --> 00:02:06,771 are too alien for me to identify with them. 40 00:02:06,771 --> 00:02:09,761 So I'm writing about the court of the Mughal Emperor 41 00:02:09,761 --> 00:02:13,451 Akbar, second half of the 16th century. 42 00:02:13,451 --> 00:02:15,181 And for me, yes, I mean, there's a lot 43 00:02:15,181 --> 00:02:16,471 of material about his reign. 44 00:02:16,471 --> 00:02:19,351 Because he was a very big historical figure. 45 00:02:19,351 --> 00:02:23,131 But the thing that interested me was a complexity in him, 46 00:02:23,131 --> 00:02:26,191 which is that he had begun to think what-- in a way 47 00:02:26,191 --> 00:02:28,681 that we would now call humanist. 48 00:02:28,681 --> 00:02:30,021 He had begun to think about human individuals 49 00:02:30,021 --> 00:02:31,741 He had begun to think about human individuals 50 00:02:31,741 --> 00:02:35,461 and their rights and their sovereign powers 51 00:02:35,461 --> 00:02:37,141 as individuals. 52 00:02:37,141 --> 00:02:39,871 So on the one hand, he's thinking some quite modern 53 00:02:39,871 --> 00:02:40,831 thoughts. 54 00:02:40,831 --> 00:02:44,941 On the other hand, he is completely an absolute ruler. 55 00:02:44,941 --> 00:02:47,311 Everybody does what he says or else. 56 00:02:47,311 --> 00:02:52,111 And he has no desire not to be an absolute ruler, you know. 57 00:02:52,111 --> 00:02:54,401 He wants to be that. 58 00:02:54,401 --> 00:02:56,591 But he has these other thoughts. 59 00:02:56,591 --> 00:02:58,691 And I thought that's-- that makes him, to me, 60 00:02:58,691 --> 00:03:00,021 really interesting, that there's a contradiction in him. 61 00:03:00,021 --> 00:03:01,881 really interesting, that there's a contradiction in him. 62 00:03:01,881 --> 00:03:03,371 So that's what you're looking for. 63 00:03:03,371 --> 00:03:04,371 I mean, you can do the-- 64 00:03:04,371 --> 00:03:06,531 as I say, you can do the research stuff. 65 00:03:06,531 --> 00:03:07,761 That's fairly mechanical. 66 00:03:07,761 --> 00:03:11,731 You can read the books and find out what the world was like 67 00:03:11,731 --> 00:03:15,591 and what-- how people dressed and-- 68 00:03:15,591 --> 00:03:18,291 and how the court was arranged and so on. 69 00:03:18,291 --> 00:03:21,711 But to find the interior truth, you know, 70 00:03:21,711 --> 00:03:23,211 that's what-- that's what took work. 71 00:03:30,071 --> 00:03:34,451 The big problem of history and writing about the past 72 00:03:34,451 --> 00:03:38,041 is it's hard to find a way of making that 73 00:03:38,041 --> 00:03:42,111 accessible to readers in the present because 74 00:03:42,111 --> 00:03:45,871 of the alien nature of thought in the past. 75 00:03:45,871 --> 00:03:47,731 And yet, you-- and yet, what you can't do 76 00:03:47,731 --> 00:03:49,381 is make people in the 16th century 77 00:03:49,381 --> 00:03:52,841 think like people think today, because that immediately 78 00:03:52,841 --> 00:03:53,801 feels fake. 79 00:03:53,801 --> 00:03:57,311 There were, for example, in the court of Akbar, very, very 80 00:03:57,311 --> 00:03:58,931 powerful women characters. 81 00:03:58,931 --> 00:04:00,021 There were women who were entrepreneurs, 82 00:04:00,021 --> 00:04:01,361 There were women who were entrepreneurs, 83 00:04:01,361 --> 00:04:05,501 who owned fleets of ships and traded with Arabia, 84 00:04:05,501 --> 00:04:07,961 and even traveled the world, you know, in a way 85 00:04:07,961 --> 00:04:09,071 that you don't think-- 86 00:04:09,071 --> 00:04:10,601 you think of women at that period 87 00:04:10,601 --> 00:04:12,341 as being in a secondary role. 88 00:04:12,341 --> 00:04:14,271 But not the case. 89 00:04:14,271 --> 00:04:16,961 There were very, very independent 90 00:04:16,961 --> 00:04:20,860 and strong-minded women in the court of Akbar. 91 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:25,461 But what you can't do is impose upon them 92 00:04:25,461 --> 00:04:28,431 a modern feminist sensibility. 93 00:04:28,431 --> 00:04:30,021 Because they didn't have that. 94 00:04:30,021 --> 00:04:30,781 Because they didn't have that. 95 00:04:30,781 --> 00:04:33,361 I mean, at the heart of the novel is this question of what 96 00:04:33,361 --> 00:04:37,831 it is to be a strong woman in a world entirely dominated 97 00:04:37,831 --> 00:04:39,451 by men, you know. 98 00:04:39,451 --> 00:04:41,911 How do you express your selfhood, 99 00:04:41,911 --> 00:04:45,511 and how do you achieve your dreams and your visions, 100 00:04:45,511 --> 00:04:46,351 you know? 101 00:04:46,351 --> 00:04:49,511 Without my trying to impose on them 102 00:04:49,511 --> 00:04:51,731 a sensibility that belongs to the-- to our time 103 00:04:51,731 --> 00:04:52,611 and not to theirs. 104 00:04:52,611 --> 00:04:54,981 You know, so you have to always be aware of that, 105 00:04:54,981 --> 00:04:58,451 that you're talking about a different age 106 00:04:58,451 --> 00:05:00,021 of the world in which people's cast of mind was-- 107 00:05:00,021 --> 00:05:01,031 of the world in which people's cast of mind was-- 108 00:05:01,031 --> 00:05:02,209 was different. 109 00:05:08,191 --> 00:05:10,471 I think when you're talking about a major historical 110 00:05:10,471 --> 00:05:14,701 figure, obviously, you're not the first person to do it, 111 00:05:14,701 --> 00:05:15,421 you know? 112 00:05:15,421 --> 00:05:18,526 And in the case of a figure like the Emperor 113 00:05:18,526 --> 00:05:21,521 Akbar, the so-called great Mughal, you know, 114 00:05:21,521 --> 00:05:23,101 there's an enormous amount. 115 00:05:23,101 --> 00:05:25,021 Even in the movies-- 116 00:05:25,021 --> 00:05:27,811 the Indian film of the 1950s "Mughal-e-Azam," 117 00:05:27,811 --> 00:05:30,021 which means The Great Mughal, is one of the most popular films 118 00:05:30,021 --> 00:05:31,801 which means The Great Mughal, is one of the most popular films 119 00:05:31,801 --> 00:05:35,251 ever made in India and tells a kind of version of the story 120 00:05:35,251 --> 00:05:38,231 of Akbar with, you know, fictional elements. 121 00:05:38,231 --> 00:05:40,341 So you have to know about that. 122 00:05:40,341 --> 00:05:42,931 But in the end, you have to find your Akbar. 123 00:05:42,931 --> 00:05:48,041 You know, you have to find the one that speaks to you. 124 00:05:48,041 --> 00:05:51,331 At least, I felt I had to find the one that spoke to me. 125 00:05:51,331 --> 00:05:56,041 And it's not the grandness. 126 00:05:56,041 --> 00:05:58,171 For me, it's not the grandness. 127 00:05:58,171 --> 00:05:59,801 But it was this interior conflict 128 00:05:59,801 --> 00:06:00,021 that I-- that-- which I'm willing to admit, may be more 129 00:06:00,021 --> 00:06:03,721 that I-- that-- which I'm willing to admit, may be more 130 00:06:03,721 --> 00:06:07,821 my invention than the psychological reality 131 00:06:07,821 --> 00:06:10,621 of the emperor himself. 132 00:06:10,621 --> 00:06:13,501 But that invention is what gave me, 133 00:06:13,501 --> 00:06:16,981 if you like, the freedom to write about it in a way that 134 00:06:16,981 --> 00:06:22,834 didn't just feel borrowed from earlier versions. 135 00:06:22,834 --> 00:06:25,001 I think this is, in general, one of the great things 136 00:06:25,001 --> 00:06:28,301 that you should think about as a writer, is how do you 137 00:06:28,301 --> 00:06:30,021 write your thing, rather than simply rewrite somebody else's 138 00:06:30,021 --> 00:06:33,661 write your thing, rather than simply rewrite somebody else's 139 00:06:33,661 --> 00:06:34,561 thing? 140 00:06:34,561 --> 00:06:38,881 You know, it's-- that's true whether it's a historical novel 141 00:06:38,881 --> 00:06:40,201 or a contemporary novel. 142 00:06:40,201 --> 00:06:45,411 When you're trying to make a character who is famous, 143 00:06:45,411 --> 00:06:48,961 you know, there's much written about, 144 00:06:48,961 --> 00:06:52,981 try and find your entry point into that character, 145 00:06:52,981 --> 00:06:54,971 you know, which belongs to you, because it 146 00:06:54,971 --> 00:06:56,971 has something to do with your needs as a writer, 147 00:06:56,971 --> 00:07:00,021 you know, something you want to write about, not just what 148 00:07:00,021 --> 00:07:01,441 you know, something you want to write about, not just what 149 00:07:01,441 --> 00:07:02,761 the world has said about him. 150 00:07:02,761 --> 00:07:05,366 And if you can get there, then the chances 151 00:07:05,366 --> 00:07:06,991 are you will write something very good. 152 00:07:13,401 --> 00:07:14,451 You know, research is-- 153 00:07:17,341 --> 00:07:18,841 it's hard to do. 154 00:07:18,841 --> 00:07:23,631 Because it works best when you're looking 155 00:07:23,631 --> 00:07:25,431 for very specific things. 156 00:07:25,431 --> 00:07:29,841 Although a Google search will go very broadly, 157 00:07:29,841 --> 00:07:30,021 it won't go very deep. 158 00:07:30,021 --> 00:07:31,791 it won't go very deep. 159 00:07:31,791 --> 00:07:35,841 I still think libraries and books 160 00:07:35,841 --> 00:07:39,621 are the places from which you find the best stuff. 161 00:07:42,363 --> 00:07:43,821 Because a lot of things, especially 162 00:07:43,821 --> 00:07:45,111 if you're writing about-- 163 00:07:45,111 --> 00:07:50,741 about history that isn't very recent history-- 164 00:07:50,741 --> 00:07:54,278 you know, the internet is not very good at old stuff. 165 00:07:54,278 --> 00:07:56,111 If you want to write about the 16th century, 166 00:07:56,111 --> 00:08:00,021 you're not going to find a whole lot of really interesting stuff 167 00:08:00,021 --> 00:08:00,641 you're not going to find a whole lot of really interesting stuff 168 00:08:00,641 --> 00:08:02,051 on the internet. 169 00:08:02,051 --> 00:08:07,541 So, like, when I was researching The Enchantress of Florence, 170 00:08:07,541 --> 00:08:10,741 the New York Public Library was probably my biggest resource. 171 00:08:13,341 --> 00:08:16,221 And just books I ordered to-- 172 00:08:16,221 --> 00:08:20,971 to get from whatever source and to read them. 173 00:08:20,971 --> 00:08:25,121 Because, see, the thing about history 174 00:08:25,121 --> 00:08:27,401 as a source material for a novel is 175 00:08:27,401 --> 00:08:30,021 that it's relatively easy to find out historical events, 176 00:08:30,021 --> 00:08:33,190 that it's relatively easy to find out historical events, 177 00:08:33,190 --> 00:08:36,761 and who was king and who was president, and what battles 178 00:08:36,761 --> 00:08:41,171 were fought, and-- so all that stuff you can do quite easily. 179 00:08:41,171 --> 00:08:45,271 What is much harder to find out is how ordinary people lived. 180 00:08:45,271 --> 00:08:49,341 You know, that requires digging. 181 00:08:49,341 --> 00:08:54,381 And because that material is really in-- 182 00:08:54,381 --> 00:08:57,591 in books and things that have never been digitized, 183 00:08:57,591 --> 00:08:58,251 you know-- 184 00:08:58,251 --> 00:08:59,571 they're not on the internet. 185 00:08:59,571 --> 00:09:00,021 So you still have to go back to the printed word. 186 00:09:00,021 --> 00:09:03,501 So you still have to go back to the printed word. 187 00:09:03,501 --> 00:09:05,691 And that's, for me, always been the most useful. 188 00:09:11,931 --> 00:09:14,301 I would say about imagination that, in the end, 189 00:09:14,301 --> 00:09:18,131 that is what you have to rely on. 190 00:09:18,131 --> 00:09:20,141 No matter how much-- how exhaustively 191 00:09:20,141 --> 00:09:22,841 you've done the research, there's 192 00:09:22,841 --> 00:09:25,216 a point at which you have to put it aside and make it up. 193 00:09:25,216 --> 00:09:30,021 You know, and sometimes you can make up things the turn out 194 00:09:30,021 --> 00:09:32,271 You know, and sometimes you can make up things the turn out 195 00:09:32,271 --> 00:09:34,221 afterwards to be true. 196 00:09:34,221 --> 00:09:36,861 You know, because the imagination 197 00:09:36,861 --> 00:09:40,131 is a wonderful weapon, you know, that can-- 198 00:09:40,131 --> 00:09:44,431 that can stumble on the truth without you actually 199 00:09:44,431 --> 00:09:46,531 having any expertise. 200 00:09:46,531 --> 00:09:50,821 I mean, I have a case-- a case of this from my friend, 201 00:09:50,821 --> 00:09:54,271 the British novelist Ian McEwan, who 202 00:09:54,271 --> 00:09:58,621 wrote a novel in which somebody had killed somebody 203 00:09:58,621 --> 00:10:00,021 and wanted to chop up the body and carry it 204 00:10:00,021 --> 00:10:01,321 and wanted to chop up the body and carry it 205 00:10:01,321 --> 00:10:05,741 in a couple of suitcases in order to get rid of it. 206 00:10:05,741 --> 00:10:09,551 And Ian didn't know anything about chopping up bodies. 207 00:10:09,551 --> 00:10:11,741 So he was living in Oxford-- 208 00:10:11,741 --> 00:10:13,071 Oxford in England at the time. 209 00:10:13,071 --> 00:10:17,441 And he asked a friend of his who was a-- 210 00:10:17,441 --> 00:10:21,216 who lectured in medicine at the University. 211 00:10:21,216 --> 00:10:22,841 And his friend said, well, I'm actually 212 00:10:22,841 --> 00:10:25,151 going to be doing a dissection on such and such date. 213 00:10:25,151 --> 00:10:27,236 Do you want to come and watch? 214 00:10:27,236 --> 00:10:28,861 So he thought, OK, I'll come and watch. 215 00:10:28,861 --> 00:10:30,021 And then on the day he was going to go, 216 00:10:30,021 --> 00:10:31,231 And then on the day he was going to go, 217 00:10:31,231 --> 00:10:35,421 some little voice in his head said, don't go. 218 00:10:35,421 --> 00:10:36,651 And so he didn't go. 219 00:10:36,651 --> 00:10:40,441 And then he made up the chopping up of the body. 220 00:10:40,441 --> 00:10:44,301 And when his friend the surgeon read the passage, 221 00:10:44,301 --> 00:10:46,648 he said to Ian, how did you know all that? 222 00:10:46,648 --> 00:10:48,481 How did you know that that's where you chop? 223 00:10:48,481 --> 00:10:51,261 How did you know that that's the place where you make the cut? 224 00:10:51,261 --> 00:10:52,911 And Ian said, I just-- 225 00:10:52,911 --> 00:10:54,111 I just made it up. 226 00:10:54,111 --> 00:10:55,881 I just imagined it. 227 00:10:55,881 --> 00:10:58,421 So yeah, if you're lucky, you can imagine the truth. 228 00:11:02,121 --> 00:11:10,851 In the end, imagination is your best and first and last weapon. 229 00:11:10,851 --> 00:11:14,491 Because what we are doing here is an imaginative act, 230 00:11:14,491 --> 00:11:14,991 you know. 231 00:11:14,991 --> 00:11:17,901 The whole-- whole act of writing is an act which 232 00:11:17,901 --> 00:11:20,841 depends on the imagination. 233 00:11:20,841 --> 00:11:22,491 And no matter how much research you 234 00:11:22,491 --> 00:11:26,691 do, if you can't imagine yourself into that world, 235 00:11:26,691 --> 00:11:30,021 into the skin of that world, then the book won't work. 236 00:11:30,021 --> 00:11:30,791 into the skin of that world, then the book won't work.